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Mushroom cultivation => Cultivation => Topic started by: jabwemet on September 14, 2009, 06:40:41 PM

Title: grain innoculation
Post by: jabwemet on September 14, 2009, 06:40:41 PM
Is there a tek somewhere on here for innoculating grain?  grain for simple minds doesn't say anything about innoculation, and I'm a bit lost on this whole idea.  I'm contemplating giving millet a shot but I don't understand... do you use syringes like with BRF cakes?  What's the method?  How much per quart jar, etc?
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: fattrout on September 14, 2009, 06:50:12 PM
jabwemet, this is what i do. i use this tek for jar lids. 
http://www.fungifun.org/English/Polyfil 
to start i use a syringe and shoot 1 to 1 1/2 cc... after that you can do G2G transfers..  :mellow: the ployfil you can get at any pet store..
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: jabwemet on September 14, 2009, 07:16:40 PM
i see... but how can you PC sterilize that?  it won't keep the water out. 

as for innoculation, do just just do one squirt into the top of the grain then tumble it around to mix it in with the grain or do you need to get it on the sides of the jar as in BRF cakes?

Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: jabwemet on September 14, 2009, 07:28:02 PM
i'm also not clear about g2g, is there a tek for that?
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: fattrout on September 14, 2009, 07:51:24 PM
you PC that just like a regular jar... put your already prepared grain in the jar. put the lid on the and PC like normal... after PC and cool down, i shoot 1 to 1 1/2 cc straight down into the jar.. in 3 to 7 days you should see growth at the bottum of the jar...
here i think you should check out this video. its 1 hour long but its wroth it..
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3286686859329905674#
it has a part about G2G...
good luck
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: psilocybin warrior on September 15, 2009, 12:53:57 PM
Wrap the lids with tinfoil to keep water out, just like pf-tek. Its better to do the sides, if your using quarts its best to innoc at the concave points to reach maximum surface area, pints it doesnt matter since they are round. And if you like you could always shake the jars afterwards. Grain-grain is very simple, transfer colonized grains to uncolonized grains in a steril enviornment w/ steril tools.

PW
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: jabwemet on September 15, 2009, 02:02:30 PM
holy shit, grain seems so much better than BRF cakes... I'm gonna have to buy more jars!

So shake after innoculation... and then there doesn't seem to be much concensus on shaking frequency during colonization.  the video ft posted said shake it pretty much all the time, never let it get cakey; some people say shake it once halfway and no more.  i guess experimentation will have to do... with g2g going on, it seems much more ok if a jar gets fucked up along the way, there's more where that came from.

I have some B+ going on BRF right now- it seems like I should be able to slip a sliver of that myc into a grain jar to keep it going... or not?  worth a shot?
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: dub504 on September 15, 2009, 03:10:16 PM
As PW said "transfer colonized grains to uncolonized grains in a steril enviornment w/ steril tools." emphasis on sterility!
You might try looking into an LC tek. That's another great way to go.
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: darksyde on September 15, 2009, 04:10:07 PM
I wouldnt shake it all the time like the video says.. I use rye and or wheat berries and as long as you dont over simmer them (to the point they are splitting and mushy) and rinse them well before the pc to remove all the starch, you wont have a problem with them getting fused together so bad that you cant break em up.. I shake mine every 2 days or so depending on how well the myc seems to be colonizing
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: fattrout on September 15, 2009, 04:48:25 PM
i wait for the jars to get 3/4 colonized before i shake. then 4 to 5 days later and just before i case... -_-

thanks PW, i forgot about the tinfoil on the lids..
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: jabwemet on September 15, 2009, 05:29:13 PM
the millet I'm planning on using is hulled, is that ok?  any reason to stay away from millet on this first go?
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: malabar on September 15, 2009, 05:55:44 PM
Jabwemet,
  I would think Any millet should be fine,..  If you are doing a g2g, you will know the results within 24 - 48 hours.   Mycelium rips through millet like a clown on Crack!   ^_^
  I have some g2g millet that colonized completely in 5 days, introduce to the FC after 2 days of incubating, and now have Massive fruits producing now as we speak. 
  I cased them in 1 qt sherbet containers, then removed them to rest on the lids.  There are literally 100's of little ones growing.  I will pop a photo later or tomorrow. 
  Millet is you friend!    -_-
   If you have not grown on grains before, the water retention is the only issue you may have issue with,...  But the growth can't be compared!
  GL.
     ~Malabar   :mellow:
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: jabwemet on September 15, 2009, 06:47:55 PM
water retention as in... too much or too little?  I'm planning on just soaking for an hour, rinse, PC.  no simmer.
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: room408 on September 15, 2009, 06:53:41 PM
i dont think thats going to do it. you want to do a 24 hour soak to allow any enpospores that may be within the grain to germinate so that they will be killed during sterilization. i soak for 24 hours then do countless rinses and then bring the pot filled with grain to a boil, on the lowest heat possible to give it more time in the hot water and just keep an eye out for when the first few start to break then strain and load up.
remember the grain should be not be soaked when going into jars.
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: malabar on September 15, 2009, 07:04:33 PM
Jabwemet,
  When I spoke of water retention.  That is Exactly what I was meaning,...  To have a balance.  Not too wet, or too dry.
 I soak briefly, ( about 30 minutes ) and drain off all excess.  This leaves the millet at a "field capacity", just like your casing mixture.
  I have Never encountered any issue of endospores, if i am using pure millet, bought as sprays, or at health food stores.  And I have used millet since the 80's.
  I think that endospore issue would be more prevalent involving, WBS, or roughly prepared mixes.  Sprays, health products, and those available for immediate consumption are as ready use as brown rice, barley, rye, or oats.
  But, follow what makes you comfortable.    ^_^
   ~Malabar   :mellow:
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: MT on September 15, 2009, 07:43:29 PM
I made six new quarts using G2G and WBS. I rinsed the grain several times to remove all of the sticks, sunflower seeds and floaties. I then let it soak for about two hours, brought it to a simmer on the stove for fifteen minutes and strained out the water. I then spread the seeds out on a surgical type towel (with no fuzz). After the grain cooled I loaded my jars and PC'd them. Every thing worked great. I now have six colonized jars. One to do more G2G and five to case. I won't be using the BRF method anymore. This works much easier.
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: malabar on September 16, 2009, 02:55:29 AM
Jabwemet,
  Here are some pics of those Millet casings I was telling you about last night.  They were started by g2g, ( brn rice-2-millet ).  These casings were made in 1 qt, and 1/2 qt sherbet containers, then dumped ( gently ) onto lids.  And, with 4 - 5 flushes using these containers, I haven't been buying too many aluminum trays these days!  ** Going Green, I guess **
  From the date of g2g to pinning,..  10 days.  And there are virtually no aborts.  These guys are fighting for Condo space here!   Millet, and Brn Rice are your friends.     -_-
  ~Malabar    :mellow:

(http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/1279/sspx1253.jpg) (http://img32.imageshack.us/i/sspx1253.jpg/)(http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/333/sspx1250.jpg) (http://img196.imageshack.us/i/sspx1250.jpg/)(http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/5681/sspx1249.jpg) (http://img16.imageshack.us/i/sspx1249.jpg/)(http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/6093/sspx1248.jpg) (http://img32.imageshack.us/i/sspx1248.jpg/)
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: cugak on September 16, 2009, 03:37:00 AM
What about white rice? Is it ok, or do i have to use brown rice?
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: malabar on September 16, 2009, 03:41:51 AM
Cugak,
  Sorry my friend.  White rice just won't make the grade.  After all of the processing, ( mostly the bleaching ) the grain has lost a majority of its nutrients. 
  I don't know of Anyone having had positive results with white rice.
    ~Malabar   :mellow:
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: dub504 on September 16, 2009, 06:50:31 AM
I just wanted to chime in on the hulled millet subject. I've used hulled millet and I don't like it as much regular millet. If you are going to use hulled millet, I would not simmer it at all. It tends to split open and turn into mush quickly. Malabar is dead on. There is no need to simmer millet.
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: fungiguy on September 16, 2009, 02:03:11 PM
malabar, what did you use to case with? did you roll them in verm?
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: malabar on September 16, 2009, 02:17:15 PM
Fungiguy,
  Those are cased with 60/40, ( Peat/Verm ).  They were cased in those plastic ice cream containers.  A thin layer on the bottom, dump the millet, or brn. rice out of the jar intact, ( with colonization, it takes the shape of the jar), then fill in the container around the colonized substrate, and on top, mist, then incubate. 
  Over the next couple of days the mycelium pokes through, and all has taken on the shape of the plastic container.  Flip it over and out onto a lid, some foil, or whatever,.....  And away you go to the FC!
  Mist this heavily, and you can actually let your tropic aire do it's thing until the ins appear.
  When the mounds start to fruit as heavily as mine do, I tend to come through and increase my FAE, to allow for addition evaporation since I will mist every other day ( even with the tropic aire ), to support all of the fruits that are pumped out on these babies.
  Hope that helps you brother.
    ~Malabar   :mellow:
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: dub504 on September 16, 2009, 02:28:52 PM
I was wondering how you did that too. Now I see. That's a really great idea/tek!
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: darksyde on September 16, 2009, 02:38:56 PM
how do you (or do you) patch it up after picking the little guys?
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: malabar on September 16, 2009, 02:48:55 PM
Darksyde / Dub,
  After I have picked All of the fruit, then I will spray the mounds very heavily, wait a few moments then roll in my casing mix.  Then back to the FC, where I will mist them again, and let the good times roll.
  As you see, the rewards are well worth the few tedious steps.     -_-
    ~Malabar   :mellow:
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: malabar on September 17, 2009, 06:21:47 AM
  And now,.......  Almost right where I want them!  Just one more day,... 
    :ph34r:(http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/3387/sspx1263v.jpg) (http://img38.imageshack.us/i/sspx1263v.jpg/)(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/7611/sspx1261.jpg) (http://img4.imageshack.us/i/sspx1261.jpg/)(http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/6619/sspx1257.jpg) (http://img38.imageshack.us/i/sspx1257.jpg/)(http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/3387/sspx1263v.jpg) (http://img38.imageshack.us/i/sspx1263v.jpg/)
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: jabwemet on September 17, 2009, 07:57:17 AM
brilliant
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: fungiguy on September 19, 2009, 10:03:37 AM
do you think i can get the same results using popcorn? it does become the shape of the mason jar until i shake it up. always searching for different avenues.   -_-
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: dub504 on September 19, 2009, 03:58:10 PM
I would think it would work w/ any grains. That myc is like the T-1000! In a good way! IMO I think it's really only useful to shake the jars once to redistribute the colonized grains. In a G2G it's almost pointless to shake after the initial transfer, but again that's just my opinion.
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: malabar on September 19, 2009, 04:35:36 PM
Fungiguy,
  I am sure you cam follow the same steps with popcorn.  Any grain will take the shape of its container, since the mycelium "weaves" a network of strands.
  As for the results, that is another issue.  I was never very impressed with the performance of popcorn.
  Try it, you may be pleased with what you get!
     ~Malabar   :mellow:
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: fattrout on September 19, 2009, 05:49:34 PM
malabar, i'm going to give it a try, with pop corn. i have 18 jars going right now.so i think i'll play with some...  :ph34r:
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: malabar on September 19, 2009, 07:05:58 PM
  Cool enough Fattrout.  I know you Luv that popcorn!    -_-
 GL with it.  Keep me apprised to your progress Bro.
   ~Malabar   :mellow:
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: cugak on September 20, 2009, 02:34:37 PM
What would you say, which grain is the best for g2g?
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: dub504 on September 20, 2009, 02:45:20 PM
I don't think it really matters. If it's colonized and you can break it up a bit, it will work.
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: cugak on September 20, 2009, 02:57:17 PM
Well my colonized millet in soled so i can only cut it with a knife! And i dont know, how will work using knife infront of a laminar flow hood. What do u think!

Maybe brown rice or barley is more easy to separe just by shaking the jar?
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: malabar on September 20, 2009, 03:10:22 PM
   Dub is correct.  Any grain Will work, provided you have not let it colonize to the point that it appears you have Cugak.  Not that you have done anything wrong at all.
   In theory, you should be able to bounce the grains apart in a gloved palm of your hand, or on a bicycle tire.  If your millet has taken on that solid a form, it is an Excellent candidate for my my plastic container casing method.
  And Cugak got is right that the "heavier" grains will always separate easier.
  Remember, don't get frustrated,.....  Have fun with it!    -_-
     ~Malabar   :mellow:
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: shroomzer on September 21, 2009, 08:23:49 AM
WOWZERS!!  Nice Malabar!
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: malabar on September 21, 2009, 09:30:55 AM
Well, Thank you,.thank you Very much Shroomzer,....... :rolleyes:
    :ph34r:
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: fungiguy on September 21, 2009, 03:09:01 PM
malabar, when you did your casings, did you use the plastic lids that go with the container?
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: malabar on September 21, 2009, 03:19:04 PM
Fungiguy,
  No my friend, I just wrapped the top with a single piece of heavy duty foil.   Incubated them at 82F and 2 days later when they were peeking through, released them and into the FC.
  ~Malabar   :mellow:
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: coyoteyogi on September 22, 2009, 07:55:43 AM
I assume you pasteurize the peat/verm? Those are kick-ass cakes Malabar.
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: malabar on September 22, 2009, 12:27:36 PM
Coyoteyogi,
  Thanks my friend!   -_-
 Since I have always been a grain guy, from day one Everything has gone into the PC.  Grains, Casing, bulk materials, utensils,........  Everything goes into the PC for 45 minutes @ 15 psi.
  My results are consistent enough to support my brand of quality control.
     ~Malabar    :mellow:
     
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: jabwemet on September 22, 2009, 01:56:00 PM
OK I just loaded my millet jars into my brand spankin new Presto 23-quart.  To prepare, I rinsed the millet thoroughly, soaked for 45 minutes then rinsed/drained again.  I followed the measurements on grain for simple minds and when the jars were prepared, they were a bit more than 1/3 full of millet, with the water about a centimeter higher than the grain level.  Does that sound about right?  I'll post some pictures of the PC'ed jars once they are done to see what you guys think of the water retention.
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: cugak on September 22, 2009, 02:04:52 PM
If you soak millet for some hours and drain it for couple of hours, you dont want standind water in your jar! Thats enought!
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: jabwemet on September 22, 2009, 02:15:43 PM
i only soaked it for 30 minutes.  so if I soak it... don't follow grain for simple minds?  it still seemed relatively dry after a 30 minute soak
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: jabwemet on September 22, 2009, 02:23:43 PM
if I don't follow the simple minds directions and just put soaked and rinsed millet in the jars, how much millet per jar?  Grain for simple minds ends up to be about a third of the jar, which isn't much; i just assumed that the millet would absorb water and cook up a bit in the PC.
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: psilocybin warrior on September 22, 2009, 02:27:43 PM
Soaking it is not what makes the grain absorb water, it allows endospores (potential contams) to germinate before the PC. Simmering is for absorbtion. If you're following the simple minds tek, the grains will absorb the water in the PC and expand, due to heat.

PW
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: jabwemet on September 22, 2009, 02:31:09 PM
so... it IS ok to have standing water in the jars. 

ok, then time to get the PC up and running again.

you guys are confusing me!

 :huh:
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: malabar on September 22, 2009, 03:03:53 PM
Jabwemet,
  I hate to add any further confusion to your project, but,.....  I am a little beyond the simple minds, and with time have learned the differences between substrates by eye.
  >>When I prepare Millet, I mearly add enough water to Hydrate the grain,...  not really even a soak.   I then pour off essentially All of the water , leaving it damp, ( it will appear visually dry, but the consistency is just about the same as casing ).
  The Fact is that Millet will not absorb very much water, ( as in the "heavier" grains ) and there is no true expansion, so you can fill your jars to whatever level you wish.  However, I wouldn't go further than 2/3 of the jar, as they need room to breath and you would like a safe distance also from your lid or covering.
  As for whether you really have to worry about the endospores has to do with the millet you are using.  If it is roughly processed,..  I say soak it.  If it is processed for human or house pet consumption,..  Take it straight to the PC process.
  Don't read too much into this,..... Millet is the easiest of all grains to prepare.
   ~Malabar   :mellow:
   
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: jabwemet on September 22, 2009, 03:09:54 PM
Malabar, so what you're saying is that I don't add water to the jars once I've put the millet in?  Just brief soak, rinse, then into the jars with no extra water?

Well this first batch is too late, they're already 20 minutes into the PC cycle and they have 1/3 millet in the jars with enough extra water so that the water line is a centimeter above the grain line.  Guess I will dump and start over.  I still have plenty of millet.

Yeah, the millet I soaked/rinsed looked quite dry but just now I tested it by chewing a bit and it just falls apart!
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: malabar on September 22, 2009, 03:18:30 PM
Jabwemet,
  If I intent to process a dozen or so jars I will trow the millet into a bowl, then cover it with water.  By the time I get an ice cold Corona,... I will begin to fill the jars by scooping the millet out with a strainer right into the jars.  The strainer will drain off enough moisture that it is ready to be PC'd.
  During the PC process there will be a small amount of moisture that encounters the Millet if it feels that it can absorb it.
  The casings earlier in this post were done in this manner, so I feel confident that you can achieve the same results.  Regardless how you choose to case, or not case.
  ~Malabar   :mellow:
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: jabwemet on September 22, 2009, 03:53:58 PM
cool... confusion averted.

Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: malabar on September 22, 2009, 04:10:12 PM
     Cool enough,....   -_-
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: psilocybin warrior on September 22, 2009, 09:11:12 PM
Im confused too so......I dunno, he never simmered his grains, so he does need standing water. I think its 100g's of grain & 70-80ml of water?

PW
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: malabar on September 22, 2009, 10:50:18 PM
PW,
     I am shocked to the point of disbelief that you wrote that! 
  Where is the Real PW, and what have you done with him??!!!???    :angry:  lol 
  Now, Seriously,....  You know I prepare "heavy" grains, ( brn rice, rye, barley, oats ) just as you do,....  Yes 100g grain/70 ml H2O, (standing ).
    >>But in terms of millet, I prepare them almost identically to the process of preparing casing to be PC'd, just about to "field" capacity.  A brief soak, then strained, into jars, then PC'd.
  I am using Millet that is consumable raw, and have never seen and endospore issue,.....  Ever.
   ***I guess I can see how this could be confusing for those who use WBS.  That definitely has to be soaked since it happens to contain just about Any and Every possible foreign contaminant they might think a critter might just eat. 
  A bit easier to digest PW??
    ~Malabar   :mellow:
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: psilocybin warrior on September 23, 2009, 11:18:46 AM
No man, this thread has made me retarded. Im never opening it again lol

PW
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: cugak on September 26, 2009, 07:51:15 AM
Ej malabar, how do you prepare barley? Thanks!
Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: malabar on September 26, 2009, 08:20:53 AM
Cugak,
  Ready to explore are we??  Cool enough.     ^_^
 Is your source a health food or feed supply? 
  If it's ready for consumption ( health food store ), prepare it the same as you would millet.
  If it's coming from a feed supply you will probably want to do that overnight soak, as you would WBS.
  Either way you go, being that it is a "light" grain, ( actually a grass ) you only want the Barley to be about the same consistency as casing soil when going to PC mode.   **  Just about field capacity with moisture.   I have learned that is is Always better to be too dry, ( since you can repeat the process it needed ) rather than being over-saturated.  Too wet, and the grain doesn't do anything but spoil, and you waste time, intentions, effort, and LC or spawn material.
  You will find that the mycelium will "RIP" though Barley almost as quickly as millet.   In a g2g, I have had pts 100% colonized in 4 - 6 days.
  I hope that gets you going.  And GL.
     ~Malabar    :mellow:
 
Title: Re: grain innoculation
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Title: Re: grain innoculation
Post by: erop3 on August 02, 2012, 06:56:46 PM
cubes incubate best at 80-83...fruiting is best closer to 70-75...I have no probs winter or summer...winter the heat is on...summer the A/C....hth
 :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:


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