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Mushroom cultivation => PF - Tek => Topic started by: High4life on September 23, 2008, 07:59:11 AM

Title: colonization
Post by: High4life on September 23, 2008, 07:59:11 AM
I have a concern about my project. I bought two different strains, tazamanian and pes hawaii strain. I originally started with 6 jars but only used 4 jars that I sterilized and innoculated. I used the steam method since I didnt have a pressure cooker. I let it sterilized for 90 mins. then I let it cool off and proceeded to innoculate 2 jars with the tazamanian and the other 2 jars with the hawaii strain. I didnt used all of the syringe since I had 10 cc and only used 2 cc for each jar. So far no colonization for the 4 jars I innoculated but what startled me was the the jars I didnt use, I didnt even sterlize and didnt innoculate and already they started to colonize. whats going on here? and yes they are kept in 72-79 degrees f.
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on September 23, 2008, 08:04:13 AM
forgot to add its been 6 days already
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: sawkaos on September 23, 2008, 05:26:36 PM
be patient!
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: psilocybin warrior on September 23, 2008, 05:46:19 PM
If there not kept at a steady temp the growth of mycelium might fluctuate a little bit, but wait atleast another week and if you don't notice anything the spores could have been bunk. 

How long did you wait after steralization for innoculation?

Let me get clear on this, so the jars that you DID NOT steralize/innoculate are colonizing?....are you sure you diddn't mix the jars up by accident somehow? is it growing mycelium? I wouldnt think so it's probably mold.

It usually takes 7-14 days depending on strain/enviornment for colonization to start.

Patient patient patient!!!!
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: Baphom3t on September 23, 2008, 07:27:18 PM
"I didnt used all of the syringe since I had 10 cc and only used 2 cc for each jar. "

That's alot for each jar.

"So far no colonization for the 4 jars I innoculated but what startled me was the the jars I didnt use, I didnt even sterlize and didnt innoculate and already they started to colonize. whats going on here?"

The amount you used per jar could be the answer to your problem.
Get rid of the jars you didn't innoc.
If they got shit growing in them then they are contam'd.

Comon man, think about it.
If their is stuff growing in jars you didn't sterilize or innoculate,then it's obvious it's contam'd.

In all honesty,the amount you put per jar(even if it's quart jars),is to much.

Baph




Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on September 25, 2008, 08:30:56 AM
good news...the two jars with the tazmanian strain started to grow mycelium but the pes hawaii strain shows no signs. And yes the jars I didnt sterlize and didnt innoculate started to colonize...thought that was strange. I went ahead and used up the rest of my syringe and used 3 more jars having a total of 5 jars that have been innoculated. So far its going good. Just worried about my hawaii strain. How long do I have to wait until I know the hawaii strain isnt gonna colonize? I also purchased the strains from http://www.micro-supply.com/mushrooms.htm is that a legit place to buy from?? thanks for the responses

on m 8th day and the tazmanian is lookin good
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on September 25, 2008, 08:39:16 AM
I threw away the 2 jars I didnt sterlize and didnt innoculate cuz I figured it was contaminated. can someone give me a better site I can get a strain, I plan on doing two more strains, this time using a pressure cooker. does anyone know if the steam method is better or the pressure cooker is better? I figured both methods are good since. I guess if you cheap you use the steam haha

ima wait 1 more week for the hawaii strain hopefully that strain isnt a lost.

also does anyone reccommend a good strain? I want to know which strain is worth the money. I

thanks for your responses ...helping me alot
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: psilocybin warrior on September 25, 2008, 10:54:58 AM
www.ralphsterspores.com <---- Great site.
> All cubes are pretty much the same as far as potency, some of the larger fruiting strains ive found were b+ and ive gotten pf-classics to be pretty massive.
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: Baphom3t on September 25, 2008, 11:15:49 AM
PW said it.
Ralphsters the man.
He's my only vendor  :mellow:

"does anyone know if the steam method is better or the pressure cooker is better?"

Well it depends on how much space you have and time to invest.
If you live with mom or in a dorm then PF TEK is your best bet.
On the other hand,I live with my wife and can PC grains in quart jars and have trays upon trays fruiting at one time.
So it comes down to situation and room.

"also does anyone reccommend a good strain?"

Any Cube will suit your need.
If any I can recommend would be.
Cambodian (http://www.ralphstersspores.com/index_files/Page651.htm)  (out of stock)
Ecuador
(http://www.ralphstersspores.com/index_files/Page2291.htm)Golden Teacher (http://www.ralphstersspores.com/index_files/Page2232.htm)
Chitwan (http://www.ralphstersspores.com/index_files/Page2964.htm) (One of my favorites) The pic doesn't give this strain justice in any way.
They are a smaller fruiting mushroom but very visual IMO.
Puerto Rican
(http://www.ralphstersspores.com/index_files/Page3252.htm) Taste like ass more than any to me, but are nice.

Baph





Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on September 25, 2008, 01:19:35 PM
im going to purchase the B+ and the mexi albino strain lets see how these two projects go. thanks for the website, im going to try it out. is it better to purchase already in a syringe or a print?
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: Baphom3t on September 25, 2008, 02:39:35 PM
"is it better to purchase already in a syringe or a print? "

I dunno.
That's really up to you.
I have prints I have made from grows,and I have syringes.
Syringes are best for innoculating jars.
Prints are best for LC, IMO.

What is you pleasure sir? Is the question to ask in this matter.

My philosophy is,
If you get fruitful return for your time, then time well spent.

Baph
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on September 25, 2008, 04:06:48 PM
im lookin for the most potent strain. any suggestions?
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on September 30, 2008, 01:02:34 PM
My PES Hawaii Strain and Tasmanian Strain are lookin good, mycelium is slowly gettin there, hope i get a fruitfull batch...
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: Baphom3t on September 30, 2008, 05:01:22 PM
Keep us updated. :)

Baph
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 01, 2008, 09:02:50 AM
definatly will keep you guys updated  and let u know how it goes. So far all jars looks nice except 1, still no signs of colonization. I took some pics but I tried to upload but the file has to be smaller than 128kb and mines are a lil bit over. wanted to show u guys my jars I innoculated. Just waiting with this sour diseal bud I got a few days ago.

would it be ok to grow two different strains of shrooms in the same chamber if its big enough to hold them?
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: Baphom3t on October 01, 2008, 12:12:29 PM
Use  Photobucket (http://photobucket.com/) or Imageshack (http://imageshack.us/)to upload pics  -_-

Baph
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 02, 2008, 08:29:11 PM
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/Picture003.jpg)
tasmanian strain
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 02, 2008, 08:30:09 PM
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/colonization2.jpg)
hawaii strains
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 02, 2008, 08:30:41 PM
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/tasmanian.jpg)
tasmanian strain
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 02, 2008, 08:31:40 PM
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/beginningcolonization.jpg)
beginning stages of tasmanian strain
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 02, 2008, 08:33:43 PM
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/tasmanian2.jpg)
innoculated these two jars last week and already showing signs of colonization...hoping for a fruitful harvest.
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 03, 2008, 07:34:09 AM
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/all3tasmanian.jpg)
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/2tasmanian2hawaii.jpg)
Today look at the jars
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: Baphom3t on October 03, 2008, 05:59:41 PM
Looking good man  :mellow: :mellow:

Baph
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 03, 2008, 06:38:31 PM
everytime I look at it, makes me happy
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 03, 2008, 07:32:45 PM
im Waiting for the growing process, want to see a fully develop mushroom and take a spore print.  keep a collection of strains for future projects, this is a very cool hobby i picked up from being curious about magic mushroom and how to identify them if I went out picking. I didnt want to take my chance and end up eating a poisonous mushroom and die, and didnt know you can grow this, always thought you had to go pick em out of cow shit...from what I was told before I did my research. 

when its fully colonized is it all white where I cant see the mix, or will it be a lil transparent?
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: Baphom3t on October 04, 2008, 08:41:22 AM
With BRF most wait for a few pins to show before birthing.
100% colonization mycelium will be dominate.
Example:

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b30/BAPHOM3T_666/cake_pre1flush.jpg)

Baph
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 04, 2008, 10:46:20 AM
do i still have to dunk it over night if the cake has pins like your pic? can I just put them  straight to the chamber?
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: Baphom3t on October 05, 2008, 05:14:19 AM
You can dunk it.
You don't have to wait for any pins if you don't want to.
The pic was more to show what 100% colonization looks like.

Baph
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 05, 2008, 08:51:20 AM
so its not necessary to dunk it 24 hours? I thought you had to dunk it to create the shock for birthing and to rehydrate the cake.
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: Baphom3t on October 05, 2008, 09:16:20 AM
"so its not necessary to dunk it 24 hours?"

I dunk mine for 12 hrs.

"I thought you had to dunk it to create the shock for birthing and to rehydrate the cake."

The purpose of dunking is to (re)hydrate the substrate.
Shocking is when people place them in the refrigarator while dunking and it's is not needed IMO.

Just dunk them for at least 12 hrs, then roll in verm and place in FC and await fruiting :)

Baph
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 06, 2008, 09:23:54 AM
ok when rollin the cake in the verm, I heard you have to sterilize the verm, is that true? and how do I go on about to sterilize the verm?
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 06, 2008, 09:39:25 AM
new pics of my colonization so far so good, keeping fingers crossed
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/Picture025.jpg)
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/OCT6.jpg)
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/temperature.jpg)

this last pic has the hawaii and tasmanian strain
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/Picture022.jpg)
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: psilocybin warrior on October 06, 2008, 08:25:53 PM
Sterilizing the Verm. when rolling is unnecessary.
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 07, 2008, 06:39:02 AM
is it necessary to roll it in the verm?
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: psilocybin warrior on October 07, 2008, 08:45:51 AM
Not entirely but It helps you get a little extra outa what you got.
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 07, 2008, 11:33:50 AM
thanxs for the advice, will have more pics up tomorrow
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: bluerunner on October 08, 2008, 06:36:38 AM
Hey I've got a question.  Once a jar is birthed, I know that I need to microwave some verm and then dunk the cakes for 12-24 hrs like Baph suggests, and then place them in my fruiting chamber w/ the damp perlite etc. My question is that once birthed do I simply not have to worry that much about my cakes getting contaminated?  I don't understand what keeps the cakes "clean" when we're washing, dunking, and handling these cakes. And also what keeps them "safe" when they are fruiting?

-thanks
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: Baphom3t on October 08, 2008, 11:43:53 AM
Thread Hijacker  -_-
Start your own thread bluerunner
Maybe I shouldn't answer thread hijackers.

Bluerunner you want a answer bro start your own thread :)

Baph
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 08, 2008, 12:59:46 PM
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/oct8my.jpg)
tasmanian strain
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/oct8.jpg)
Hawaii and tasmanian strain
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 13, 2008, 09:13:41 AM
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/Colonizationweek6002.jpg)
All 4 are tasmanian strain, and the 1 jar behind the clock/temp is the hawaii strain.
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/Colonizationweek6003.jpg)
Colonization spreading under the jars...so far so good
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/Colonizationweek6001.jpg)
Hawaii strain and tasmanian strain...good mycelium.

keepin fingers cross I get a good harvest and no contams.
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: sin2win on October 13, 2008, 10:03:38 AM
very nice.... i CANT WAIT for my syringes to come from ralphsters.  My first time and im very excited bout the project (hopefully ill be as successful lol).  Im getting 4 different strains that should be coming soon, sent out last week.

Looking good tho, keep it up and GL!!  R u casing the cakes or just birthing them?
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: Baphom3t on October 13, 2008, 10:21:24 AM
Those are coming along nicely.  :mellow: :ph34r:
Just let them sit and do their thing.

Baph
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 13, 2008, 03:52:22 PM
yea im going to do the dunk n roll method as soon i get full 100% Colonization, just excited everything lookin good so far, hope my cakes produce alot of shroomz  :ph34r:
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 13, 2008, 04:02:21 PM
hey sin2win, what type of strains did you get?
I just recently purchased the strain of the month which was the mexican albino strain, and I ordered the B+, for my next project that Im going to try to do. If you guys have pics of your harvest could u post on here, would be nice to see how it looks like at the end.
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: sin2win on October 13, 2008, 10:56:15 PM
I ordered "Combodian... Thai-Lipa Yai... Ban Han Thanon... and Mazatepec.. I also picked Chitwan as a sub and now im actually really hopin it comes lol...grrrr I CANT WAIT NO MORE, i just went shoping for my suplies today so im good to go... pc and everything lol.

When i start growing ill post my progress as u did (http://img2.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/winking/winking0011.gif) (http://www.mysmiley.net/free-war-smileys.php)
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 14, 2008, 06:57:46 AM
Nice picks, I also debated on getting the cambodia strain but went along with the strain of the month. My First strains where purchased the www.micro-supply.com which were the PES HAWAII Strain and the Tasmanian strain. Tasmanian strain colonized faster than the hawaii strain, just interesting how things develop. I didn't use the PC instead I used the steam method for 90 mins and sure enough I got good mycelium growing. I was worried in the beginning of contamination and no growth but the people here told me to have patience and I should start to see something within couple of days and it did. As a beginner I plan to use other methods later down the line to see whats makes the shrooms more potent and what conditions can produce alot of shroomz....just gotta do some more research.

thanks for the link earlier about the oat spawn definatly lookin into that
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: sin2win on October 14, 2008, 10:47:48 AM
yea, those r actually my other subs (Tazmanian and Hawaiian).  I think im going to boil my cakes also but the PC for the grains... figured i have to get at least ONE right. lol, hopefully!!
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: Baphom3t on October 14, 2008, 11:00:11 AM
Cambo's are great and are hearty.
They colonize in a decent time and are pretty resistent during fruiting.

@High4life,
All cubes are relatively the same as far as potency,there is just subtle differances in the chemical makeup of each cube strain.

Baph
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: sin2win on October 14, 2008, 11:16:38 AM
I just checked out the Micro-Supply site and i like that they have syringes for 10$ and their 12cc, thats cool... i got mine from www.ralphstersspores.com (http://www.ralphstersspores.com), they have a very big variety there and from what i been reading very trustworthy.  Syringes are a lil more (15) but when u get 4 or more their 10$.  thats what i did.
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 14, 2008, 11:52:29 AM
@Baph, I heard that psilocybin azurescens shrooms that grow on woodchips are more potent than the cubes, im still readin on this...


@sin2win, www.ralphstersspores.com is the website everyone recommended and thats where I just recently bought my two strains from, the B+ and the mexican Albino for my second project.

does anyone have a link to buy a book in this field?

Title: Re: colonization
Post by: Baphom3t on October 14, 2008, 03:51:06 PM
But psilocybin azurescens is not a Cubensis strain my freind.
That makes a world of differance.

Mycelium Running
Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms, 3rd Edition
The Mushroom Cultivator

Are just a few you can buy :)

Baph
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 14, 2008, 04:52:58 PM
baph have you ever grew psilocybin azurescens?
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: Baphom3t on October 14, 2008, 05:31:22 PM
No.
I don't want to venture into that until I buy my own property.

Baph
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 15, 2008, 01:57:56 PM
Have you ever gone picking in the fields?
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: Baphom3t on October 15, 2008, 02:08:31 PM
With no luck.
They grow in the wild around here but no sucsess when hunting in the wild.

Baph
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 15, 2008, 05:29:39 PM
I live in Virginia and I've been wanting to go out and pick for some time but don't know where to start. Besides that I'm scared to get a killer mushroom that will send me to my grave...need a guide book with pictures to distinguish them from one another. What if I find a big field nothing but magical shrooms all for the pickin....would be a wonderful day  :ph34r:
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: psilocybin warrior on October 15, 2008, 06:47:50 PM
There are only a few types of mushrooms that are lethal, mostly amanita's. If your serious about hunting this is a good place to start http://www.shroomery.org/6235/Mushroom-Hunting-FAQ
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 16, 2008, 07:34:45 AM
thanks for the link, was really helpful.

Got new pictures for the end of this week. So far so good with the 6 jars, just 1 jar never colonized which was the jar behind the clock. wonder what happened.
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/Colonizationoct16001.jpg)
all 6 jars colonized and in good condition, kept at 75 degress F.
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/Colonizationoct16002.jpg)
mycelium is growing all around the jar slowly getting to full colonization
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/Colonizationoct16003.jpg)
almost there....
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: Baphom3t on October 16, 2008, 08:25:26 AM
Looking good there High4life,won't be to awful long before you'll be fruiting.  :mellow: :mellow:

Baph
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 16, 2008, 09:51:54 AM
Yea slowly getting there....can't wait to take pictures of my first birth.
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: sin2win on October 16, 2008, 11:10:32 AM
oops i posted to c ure progrrss in another post, now i c lol  :mellow:
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 16, 2008, 05:42:36 PM
Yea just stay posted to my forum "Colonization" and you will see my progress in my first project using the PES Hawaii Strain and Tazmanian Strain...also making spore prints for the first time.
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 20, 2008, 07:32:01 AM
Took New Pictures and its looking real good, Just concerned a little because the weather here just dropped dramatically and its cold. My temperature in my closet dropped from 77 degrees f to 72 degrees f Im thinking of puttin the heat on.

Im going to start out with the picture of the jars where its not colonized all 6 of them right down below
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/Colonizationoct20001.jpg)

From Left to Right....this first jar is the Hawaii Strain almost colonized but you can see a big spot missing..its getting there
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/Colonizationoct20002.jpg)

This second Jar is the Tasmanian Strain lookin good
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/Colonizationoct20003.jpg)

took a picture of my temperture at 72, the jar next to it is the hawaii strain
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/Colonizationoct20004.jpg)

this jar is the tasmanian strain
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/Colonizationoct20005.jpg)

This picture is also a tasmanian strain
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/Colonizationoct20006.jpg)

the last jar at the end quickly colonized faster than the rest of the jars...tasmanian strain
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/Colonizationoct20007.jpg)

this last picture was taken on the sides where its all colonized
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/Colonizationoct20008.jpg)

so far its going good but slow. gotta keep my temperature up at a constant rate.

I'll take more pictures either in the mid or end of the week.

:ph34r:
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: Baphom3t on October 21, 2008, 04:50:18 AM
72 is ok.
They will still colonize.
Don't forget it's about a 3 degree differance from the inside of the jars.
So if it's 72 in the room it's like 75 - 76 in the jars.

Baph
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 21, 2008, 07:12:56 AM
I just thought since I had it at a constant temp (75) that maybe interrupting the temp might effect the rate which the mycelium colonizes. I turned on the heat only if it went below 72. Im constantly checking the temp just to be on the safe side.

thanx for the advice

:ph34r:

Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 24, 2008, 07:02:30 AM
This pic is the Hawaii Strain and Tasmanian Strain (from left to right)
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/Colonizationoct24001.jpg)

you can see the tasmanian strain is almost fully colonized( 90%)
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/Colonizationoct24004.jpg)

the rest of the jars are doing good
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/Colonizationoct24002.jpg)

The last jar at the end is almost there....fully colonized
(http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo352/jcramos1982/Colonizationoct24003.jpg)

:ph34r:
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: Baphom3t on October 25, 2008, 06:08:31 AM
You'll fruiting before you know it.
Looking nice.
Keep up the good work.

Baph
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 25, 2008, 06:52:18 AM
thanxs, right now im playing the waiting game, making sure it gets fully colonized.



feel free to post up your pics on here.

:ph34r:
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: Baphom3t on October 25, 2008, 11:11:27 PM
I had pics on here back when there was a gallery page,hmm don't know what happend to that.

Baph
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on October 27, 2008, 02:25:21 PM
post something nice
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: psilocybin warrior on October 30, 2008, 11:17:49 AM
they look like the mix is packed down a little much so it will colonize slower, next time around just let it all fall into place n the myc will grow way faster when its loose and airy.
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on December 21, 2008, 05:11:41 AM
sorry for not keeping you posted....I had 5 jars that were a success and I soo many shrooms but once dried had around 3 oz. What can I say? I was HIGH 4 a LONG TIME LOL I gotta recommend the HAWAII Strain Kicked ASS, BEST Visual and the Tasmanian Strain had the longest effect. Again Sorry for not taking pics of the first birth and me drying it....Got too excited when I saw the first shroom pop up. This time Im starting 4 new strains and im going to post it up ....... :ph34r:


thanks to all who helped me thru my difficult journey.
Title: Re: colonization
Post by: High4life on December 21, 2008, 05:14:48 AM
FANG sorry for the late reply but its lookin real good. Keep us updated with your project.

what type of strain are u using?